bring it to fruition and get a chance to share it with you. i want to thank moab for having us and i want to thank my co-author waldo martin who 14 years ago saw a project that really needed to happen and i have been an organizer for a long time and he said we really need to turn this into a bigger project and we worked together on for 14 years. he has been there every step and it's been an amazing partnership so thank you waldo. i want to thank professor taylor for coming and moderating this event. i want to thank billy who is here, the chair of the association for the black panther party and other former panther members in the audience and i want to give a very special thanks -- i am very honored and we are very lucky to have here with us tonight chairman bobby seale the founder with huey p. newton of

the black panther party and chairman seale is in the process of producing a film and it's going to be very important film. there have been several films about the panthers and different aspects but they really haven't done justice to the history so this is a very important project that chairman seale is taking on we are fortunate he will get a chance to talk with all of us about that as well so he will be coming up as a special guest to speak after waldo. so let me jump in. this is a big look and i'm not going to take a lot of time here but i want to give you sort of the outlying of the project and our argument. i'm going to run through some of the photos. we are lucky to have 50 photos in the book and i will share them with you tonight eerie and we really started this project asking why in this moment in the

mid-60's after the tremendous success of the civil rights movement and the demonstrated power of nonviolence and claims for participation in american citizenship and rights, why at this moment in the late 60's to the black panther party challenge america as an empire? way this politics become so influential and important? why did so many young revolutionaries in cities throughout the country take up arms and dedicate their lives to the revolution and the black panther party? and so i'm going to touch on a few themes that we have developed in the book to give you a taste of some of it here. the first thing is that one of the things i was very surprising to me when we started to look at this is in the mid-60's there

were debates, rigorous debates happening in cities throughout the country, l.a., san francisco, oakland, chicago, new york. a black power ferment of people asking how do we take the gains in the successes and the power of the civil rights movement and translate into that power that can challenge poverty. the civil rights movement have been tremendously successful at dismantling jim crow and dismantling segregation but what it didn't do was it didn't provide an insurgent means to transform poverty. it didn't provide a way to change ghettoization and it didn't reach the full goal to the participants in the civil rights movement of freedom and power. what you have is really an in 66 it became a big cause. but power, how do we build black power?

there were organizations in most major cities asking this question and try to think about it. there were a lot of different kinds of approaches. one important kind of answer to this was to say we are not just going to come its not that we just want to be part of america. america is an imperial power and we need to really challenge that imperialism and part them parcel the anticolonial struggles not only in africa but internationally. so there are or organizations in the bay area asking that question on a small scale. one organization is called armchair revolutions of the revolutionary -- and both bobby seale and huey p. newton participated. but there are four different kinds of answers. nothing had really emerged to tap that power of disruption. and what huey p. newton and

bobby seale did that really started to provide an answer to the black power question was that they created a way to stand up against police brutality. if you think about that moment ,-com,-com ma the watch rebellion there have been urban rebellions all across the country and some of them very large. these were really expressions of resistance to strategy. you had massive migration in the north and the west and the jobs that attracted people and municipality's had responded. saying we are not going to deal with poverty and deal with ghettoization. we are going to contain it so you had many young people living in ghettos who are just really being brutalized and fed up that they didn't have recourse.

you have to remember at this moment despite the triumphant civil rights, you had only six congressman who had been elected as national congressman. you had very little access of black people to elite universities. you have almost exclusively a white felise department not only in the bay area but most cities in the country. and exclusions from the political apparatus and machines. so on a local level in this moment of civil rights the legality was that there was little institutional recourse. so people were asking, how do we deal with the civil rights movement? how do we stand up and make businesses and create a source of power? and bobby seale and huey p. newton figured out a way to do that by standing up to police

brutality. initially those armed patrols were completely legal. they have studied the law and they knew what distance they needed to stand. when the guns could not be loaded in the cars and when a felon could not carry a handgun and all the very specific legislation around when and where it was legal and they emulated tactics done in l.a. and started to patrol the police and stand up. this is true of the local following. young adults who said that his power. that is standing up. we are going to join in and we are not just going to sit there and talk about the revolution and the revolutionary action movement but this gives us a way to actually stand up against brutality. when this really change to a different scale when they were

on patrol in oakland standing up and following the police and patrolling the police. this is changes when the young man was killed in richmond north of oakland and neighbors were killed by the police, shot in the back of there was a lot of evidence that this was an unjustified murder. there was no official recourse. people tried petitions and they tried talking to the politicians and try talking to the sheriff and basically the story was sorry, we are not going to do anything about this. the civil rights organizations didn't have a response so huey p. newton and bobby seale one up at their delegation pretty soon you had not one, not five, not 10 but hundreds of black people rallying in north richmond and

bringing their own weapons. and saying we are going to create our own. so this puts the party on a whole different scale because now this is really seen by the political establishment as a threat. what happens is the state steps in and says okay we can't have this. we are going to change the gun laws. interestingly the nra in this period is in favor of verse directions on the 2nd amendment and ronald reagan and -- pushed through their right to restrict to bear arms and made this political power possible. but this really puts the party on the map.

the delegation of panthers go to the assembly and protest this legislation. they go armed where the laws passed in newspapers all over the world wrote about the black panther party. this is huey p. newton at the wicker throne. i won't have time to talk in detail about a lot of the pictures. another key piece about the black and the party did, the idea wasn't it came right out of malcolm x. if you compared with malcolm x's 1953 program there is an important difference but there's a lot of development. the idea is that the black panther party were the legitimate representatives of the black community. the community had to govern in our own interest and we will

take that honor make that happen. the idea was not just about standing up to the police. it never was from the beginning. the party was very much about creating stewardship and self governance and community self-governance. while the initial development of the party and the national threat was there the strategy of self-defense, a lot of what became really the center of a party practice in 69 and onward was free brac is for children and community programs about taking care the community. here you had the war on poverty and yet you had children starving here in the united states. the black panther party said we are going to feed the children in our community. this was the breakfast program and they had liberation --

i want to say a word about the party. the party was attacked by the federal government not only is an organization that's really the history and the political possibility of the party was attacked. if you look at the documents of j. edgar hoover thinking about the threat of the party he makes it very clear that the challenge is to really make the party impossible to support. if you look at, just to give an example and an illustration there is a memo in san francisco who writes to hoover and says you know hoover is directing them to create a program to

attack the breakfast program and san francisco because you know this program has support from the black church and the liberals and should we really be no leave the program alone and focus on partisan politics? huber comes back with this hazing memo and he says you miss the point. the point is exactly that this is a program from nonblack allies and that's exact date why. the whole intention is not just the destruction of the party of theorization but its vilification. one way that i want to touch on very briefly is the vilification in terms of gender politics. there was a very heavy attack on the party and people may know the book black macho and the

super woman where angela davis was called a do it for your man revolutionary and drew jordan and others came back and tour the critique apart. but, that line, that line of attack that says that the party was really epitomize misogyny and patriarchy is a distortion. i don't want to go too far in the other direction. i think it would be not a reflection. some people want to get up and surely then say the party was perfect and gender dynamics in the party were great. there is some really strong writings, theoretical writings to take strong and progressive stances on gender and sexuality. you look at huey newton's 1970 s. 8.

but the reality was very complex one of the things we tried to do in the book is to pay attention to summon the specificities. sort to sort of give just a nutshell sort of assessment of how we see gender playing out in the party, the party started it did have was drawn masculine project in the sense of this was about standing up to the police and about being proud of black masculinity and not being deterred and we are not going to be pushed around. many of the members in the party early on were men. but also very early on in the party there for women. what happened and this happens in most organizations, right? is that over time women became more and more the center in the back on of the party and the political work and increasingly became the folks who ran the party day today on the ground. this is a group of women panthers rallying and they are rallying from sacramento.

there were also armed women. this is kathleen cleaver in 68 but one of the interesting things, there have been claims that early in the party there weren't -- that is not true. women were armed in the party from the start. if you look at the black panther newspaper you remember the early early -- thrown their images from that same photo session with guns and there were women in the delegation in sacramento. so women played a variety of roles and were essential in the party throughout its history. what happened was the party had all kinds of problems in terms of gender dynamics as a society does. in many ways struggled with those issues. and so if you look in the paper if they are all kinds of debates

around gender dynamics with lots of voices from rank-and-file panthers. mostly women and also some men where they were debating gender dynamics in the perry -- party from early on in a history. if you look at the fascism conference there was a mage or part of the conference was a panel on gender dynamics which ended up being this very contentious sort of center of what the conference ended up being about. these issues were heavily debated and i am not, i would be the last person to stand up here and say that the party had gender dynamics all figured out. what i want people to understand is these issues were complex and they were contested from early in the party. there were a lot of women who were running the party day today from early on in its party history and certainly i think the party was well ahead of society at large debating these issues. >> i'm going to go very briefly

through what happens is that following the assassination of martin luther king, the party explodes and it spreads. it was basically a local organization until february of 1968. february 1968 oakland and los angeles and that is pretty much it until april and by 1970, you have chapters and also in ccf and 68 cities throughout the country, 68 cities and most of those chapters and in some cases hundreds and thousands of members who dedicated their lives. we are we are not just talking about going to a rally that they were saying that is what i'm going to do for my life but i'm going to join this revolution be a panther. this spread to 68 can't -- cities throughout the country. those were people coming to the party and saying we want to be panthers.

you have your finger on this issue of black power and we want to be part of that in the party has to turn down a lot of people and put some brakes on that to try to control the process of growth. let me make one other point that i'm going to run through the cities and show these dynamics of visually in the different cities. but their oppression of the party started from the beginning and got very heavy by 68. and the most intense repression if you count in terms of death or armed conflicts was 69. those were the years the party did the most -- so there is a puzzle there. there is a puzzle they are. it wasn't just repression that ended the black panther party. the party had some resilience. here you have los angeles. this is on the top john huggins on the bottom.

they were killed in january of 69 and the party in los angeles continues to grow very rapidly. by the end of 69 you actually have december 8, 1969 you have a mini-war on 41st in central where the panthers are defending their offices and their first swat teams with hundreds of police with military weapons are actually bombing offices and firing not just from rifles but carriers into the building. they hold off the attacks for six hours. this is to give you a slice. these are not panthers or even potential panthers many of these folks. they are rallying. over 10,000 people rallying in many of them are middle-aged.

many of them actually have more moderate politics. here are some of the prisoners in the l.a. shootout. this is seattle. fred hampton, a very vibrant leader from chicago is assassinated in his bed. by the local police working with the fbi. and organizations like the urban league and the naacp turn out in force and protests. here is on the top a rally in new york and on the bottom lima ohio. lima ohio and here is washington d.c.. detroit on the top, new orleans.

the new orleans office below philadelphia. omaha. this is just to give you a flavor of some of the sort of spread of the party. so i want to close with just a couple words about why and what that might say more generally about insurgent movements. you know there are different kinds of politics and a lot of political power is built from below. people work with each other and they do organizing work. but there are limits to those kinds of power when it comes to organizing. institutionalized power. usually it is used to build and consolidate power for people in charge of those institutions and so there are many moments in history where people have been

able to make a transformative change, not through the slow process of networking and organizing although that has been a part of it but they have tapped the party of disruption. that is what you see in the civil rights movement. the line was we are going to take the slow road and eventually segregation will sort of wind their way. the civil rights insurgents weren't going to wait because they knew that waiting might not get them where they needed to go. the civil rights movement put their bodies on the line and they stood up to power and disrupted business as usual. the party did a similar thing. in a very different way. the party wasn't saying we want to be a party of the united states and it wasn't saying -- but that was not working to challenge police brutality. so what the party did was also tapping the power of disruption. they said we are not going to

sit by and be brutalized by the police. we are not going to sit by and wait for government handouts. we are going to govern our own communities and take that power into our own hands but what the party did that was able to sustain that disruption as a source of power is that they were able to pose that politics in a way that drew broad allied support. if you think about the naacp and the urban league turning out in chicago they were not supporting the party. they also knew that given there was no or very limited access to the higher education there was little representation and there was not representation on the police force of the fire departmendepartmen t or political parties. they knew they didn't want the young activists who were standing up and doing something and that was a threat to them as well. with the party did was articulate politics that not only choose support from more

moderate black politics but also choose support from other non-black in the united states and internationally and that outlet support was crucial to be able to sustain self-defense and the anti-imperialism of the black panther party as a source of power for change. i'm going to run through a few examples of some of the allies here. this is the young party of puerto rican organization that emulated the black panther party in new york after they took over. they ended up having to take over a church in their neighborhood. working with many church members because they couldn't get space to run their breakfast program and it ended up that they got a lot of support for the program. here is an allied mobilization from the women's movement in new haven. here is david hilliard talking

at a rally at yale in new haven. a lot of the key supporters if you look also at who were the lawyers and who were buying the papers and some of his supporters for the programs, there were a lot of antiwar folks who were non-black who saw their own states threatened particularly by the draft in the party became a lightning rod with a lot of those folks providing key support for the party. so you see tom hayden and david dellinger and abbie hoffman and a whole bunch of yale students shutting down yale university and support of seale's trial. here is berkeley. here is chairman seale.

here is a rally for chairman seale in sweden. hundreds of people in sweden mobilized when seale was in prison. eldridge and the embassy and in algiers the north vietnamese working and offering an exchange of about 100 p.o.w.s for the release of bobby seale from prison. and the premier of china meeting there were tens of thousands of chinese rallying in the street with big signs saying down with with -- so i'm going to end up there and turn it over to waldo martin. thank you. [applause]

>> first off i want to thank my way up and elizabeth for putting this program together. like josh, this has been a long time, a labor of love but also a struggle. i have to acknowledged that josh 's energy, his brilliance and his commitment made this project. i wavered. josh would say, get up brother and he was the key author and the principle author. he laid down the tracks. i would come in and throw in some drums and throw in a little of this in a little of that. he pushed it around and after a while we set hey this is a book. so i really want to give kudos

to josh who was the principle author and i'm the co-author. a lot of it was these conversations that we had over the years in person, on the phone, ours were reworked their ideas and where we talked about how this particular history might be written. i also want to give -- to chairman seale and i look forward to what he has to say. needless to say as a genuine american hero and thinking about how we treat people who have given their lives to better not only america but the world, he is one of those people we need to honor. also i want to thank all of the party members and fellow travelers and sensitive and

empathetic folk who are here and to just decided i wanted to be here. what i want to do is hopefully in a brief way say a little bit about the context, sort of the scholarly historical context that we worked in and what we were trying to do. because we not only are sort of academics but we see ourselves as people in the real world and wanted to buy a book that most people could open up and get excited about. that is what we aim to. not a dry scholarly tone that would only be good for propping up a door or something like that we wanted it to be a book that would engage and stimulate. but also to take the party very seriously.

to suggest that how most americans think about the black panther party needs to be radically revised is a vast understatement and i have to sort of pay attention to my text otherwise we will never get out of here and i will start preaching which we don't need. in fact the black panther party and their way of thinking was an extraordinary revolutionary movement that at its height five valiantly for a root and branch change, systemic change, change from the bottom-up, grassroots change. they sought this in the capitalist political economy of the united states and indeed they sought and united with those engaged in systemic change in international political economic arrangements. the black panther party fought for a domestic and a global socialist system committed to the kinds of things that everybody cares about, equality,

justice and human rights. from where josh and i said, this is the historical truth. fighting for revolutionary change is extremely difficult. it's often very very messy and the history of politics of the party confirms these particular positions. but when we go to a dominant historical narrative, the dominant popular cultural narratives that shape how many and perhaps most americans think about the party, you run into a barrage of misinformation and misinterpretation. and it's imperative that we understand that and as josh was sort of laying out, the official vilification, the official denigration and how that folds

over into history and popular culture. so in popular understanding for example among a lot of people, the black panther party with this older black radicalism and its gun toting thuggery and they did this from -- so i know it's out there. put another way the black panther party at the demise the bad black 60's as distinct from the good black 60's when black people for non-violent civil disobedience getting knocked in the head committed committed to integration into racialism, what i call the kumbaya view of the civil rights movement and the black struggle and general which is totally off-base, right? the bad 60's led not only to the unraveling of america but the death knell of the civil rights movement. as a historian this reminds me

of that fallacious old-school view the black reconstruction after the civil war actually killed off reconstruction. you know when black people started participating in politics actively trying to take control over their lives, this was the problem. we see this happening in the way in which a lot of scholarship and a lot of popular culture cheat -- treats the party. the party is blamed for the violence that others perpetrated it is blamed for the errors and the wrongs that others perpetrated. it's the victim being victimized, right? so we vigorously obviously dissent from this kind of view. what we argue instead is that the party helped spearhead and further lead expansive growth of

the black struggle in the late 60's in the early 1970s. in our view the party helped push forward in crucial ways the struggle. they epitomize black power. they were very different in fundamental ways from the civilized movement but obviously they built on that movement. also as josh began to lay out, several myths might beat -- must be put to bed. first the parties brand of radical black nationalism was liberationist. it was neither integrationist nor segregate us to. and it was certainly not separatist as many accounts suggest. the party was key and based on coalitions of progressives and other people of color and like-minded folk whether they were black or white, interested

in a similar kind of politics. the party was humanist. it was antiracist and it was open to working with progressives and nonblacks including whites and people of color. a charge that i often get when i teach, that the party was racist is wrong and pernicious and in theory and practice. the black nationalism of the black panther party was broad and inclusive. it was not narrow. it was not sectarian. another way you encounter this in the american mind is sort of this notion that the late 60's early 70's unraveling in this attack on american empire represented the triumph of good over evil. when in fact the bulk in the

majority of the evil was being perpetrated by the empire. so once again you know, the power of the state and the power of mainstream historians and conventional sort of narratives are used to vilify the party. what josh and i spent over a decade doing was what scholars do. we sifted the evidence. we spend years working through a whole range of documents and what we tried to do was to offer a historical assessment that is clear-eyed but a counternarrative to what i think and what josh agrees is this dominant historical narrative which seeks to misrepresent the party. what we try to do is not only for by the counternarrative but

what we think is a more accurate narrative. and we think about the party in a variety of contexts. the party is the most important expression of black power politics in this period. it's a commentary relationship between the civil rights movement and black power, sort of this notion of an enduring black freedom struggle and how to situate the party. sort of the transformative moment of that late 60's to early 70's. to forget raid two points that josh has already laid out so eloquently, first we emphasized that the parties politics were the most important reason for the parties period of exclusive exclusive -- explosive growth and its impact during the late

60's and are we 70's. we show that the party growth and impact altered its ability to improvise and sustain a set of lyrical practices and ideas that created a broad face of allies among blacks and the progressive communities of colors and radical lines internationally. we also want to acknowledge that we have the only people who effort ever written books on the party. there is an expanding body of work and we'd read we have read literally everything that we can get our hands on. so what we do is we not only read that material but we created our own understanding and offered her own views of the history but a history informed by this large body of work.

when historians talk about it it tries to bring together all of that work and it tries to put it in perspective. reducing the book to its essence, what we try to do and i think we did an okay job here, we take politics very seriously. we take the politics of the party very seriously. when we disagree with a particular tactic or strategy, this is what made the party. there are various ways one might visit the party but for us the party was ultimately about its politics. the final thing that i want to say is that this was a moment in history that is very different from our moment. one of the key things we tried to do in the book is to bring to life why, how and with what

consequences the parties spearheaded and can shoot it to a revolutionary moment. one of the challenges that we accepted and labored long and hard to meet was to capture and represent and as compelling a way as possible that historical moment in the late 60's and early 70's when global revolutions, even revolutions within the united states seem desirable and even possible. our present historical moment as you know better than i do probably, is very different. unlike the late 60's and early 70's today as we said in this room in 2013 while millions around the globe and even in the united states might desire revolution, the sense of revolution as possible stalls. and the sense of revolution as impending is lacking. in black against empire we try to re-create a vividly

engagingly as possible the history of a bygone era that is still very much alive even though all too often wrongly mistakenly and popular memory and consciousness presented in ways that we fundamentally disagree with. the final thing i want to say is it's a good reason, okay? as a historian committed to a narrative and the art of storytelling, we tried to write a book that you would want to buy and actually feel. so it is page time. without further ado, i will give the microphones over to chairman bobby seale. [applause]

>> thank you, thank you. right on time. this book let me tell you, i read this manuscript for a year and it really helped put together and structure and understanding of the politics in our history. the politics and its interconnected and interrelated with how the fbi and co-intel pro, counter intelligence program from the president of the united states on down at the time we were really talking this heavy point of this was richard m. nixon.

he was the one who black listed it. in the found that i'm producing that we are going to produce -- we have an indigo campaign and we need to raise funds before we get to to hollywood. we have party been to hollywood once. in our research, we got ahold of what was now public. watergate tapes. watergate tapes. remember nixon used to tape everything? they have public access now and we got got ahold of one where j. edgar hoover is talking to richard m. nixon in their own voice and richard m. nixon. we have got to get rid of these black panthers and etc. and so on so. yes sir says j. edgar hoover. i will differ only talk to them

etc. and so on. it's important to understand this. this is your new united states government. when you start talking about with the black panther party was about, how we evolved, we popped a part in the middle of an already ongoing nationwide protest movement. the civil rights movement we popped up right in the middle of that. we founded the black panther party october 2, 1936 as the founding date of the black panther party. that was the date we named it. we had to search and find it name and we did find a name. we decided to go out and -- is her first issue. if you look at the whole thing, poverty, we were talking about as i discussed numerous times up until that time we are going to organize a mass membership organization.

we are going to organize and unify the votes in the comanche and at some point we are going to be able to have enough people vote so we can take over those political seats. we need those political seats prepared you can't just talk about black power this in black power that and you don't go after the political power seats. political power seats are very important. my analysis and huey's analysis when we looked at what happened in 1954 with rosa parks we came back. huey was in law school too and i looked at that and said wait a minute. do you know what this is about? they are racist legislators that made racist laws. we had to move to the back of the bus and if you're at the back of the bus and white folks command and want to sit down you have to get up and give that white person your seat. you have to read leon higginbotham. he was a federal justice in philadelphia. he would save prolific writer on civil rights has was connected with the loss. his latest book was shadows of

freedom. but he articulates and shows you a history of how laws are made in the country not only the federal level but the state level etc. based on the precepts of white supremacy connected with another precept they had the black inferiority. do you see how the laws are start should? in that context you can see the laws being that own and the structure, the very structure of racism in america. and all the discriminatory and racist practice etc., that is what it was about. so here we are a new organization popping on the scene with this analysis looking at the stuff and i'm telling you we need to capture the imagination so we decided to patrol the police. our patrolling of the police we were imitating another group down in los angeles. the only thing about the group in los angeles beatty guns to

protect themselves. they had the tape reporters and walkie-talkies. this was a group following the riots of 1965 in a month or so later a group called community alert patrol had armbands and caps and they were observing the police with walkie-talkies and tape recorders etc. in los angeles california. why? what sparked it? a black mother being beaten by several police and that sparked the watch riot. when i look at that situation as it is involved with 70 or 80 people killed and 200 some odd wounded and 5000 arrested, my question is how do we organize 5000 people? we need to be able to organize. this was before the black panther party gets started. this was 1965. barry m. trying to get this thing going. i created a council and counsel and these were campus

organizations organize in the community, anti-draft programs to tell black folks documenting the wars that african-american people have fought and in this country from its very inception, from its very beginning. people don't know. you have to read and understand. lafayette from france was invited by george washington and went to the new england area and told the colonials you are right tech and you're getting ready to get your buts whipped. the king in england has gotten the german russian shoulders. you have these slaves and you promise the slaves freedom and train them to help you fight he could issue a red taking and you don't know what you're doing. that is what lafayette was saying so in effect they did promise that blacks and then they did train thousands of them. when the showdown came where the

german soldiers landed in rhode island? who kicked their buts? is lack slaves. that's important to understand. when i started understanding that stuff, i saw the civil war and the emancipation proclamation was a military tactic as it was only reinstated in five states of heavy resistance. more importantly in the emancipation proclamation dena what they x. line says? [inaudible] in effect 168,000 black men were enlisted into the army as documented by deb e. d. dubois. 38,000 died. two years later when the war was over who kicked the confederate buts? those black folks. prior to them being enlisted they were coming across the lines saying we will help you fight. that's important history.

their first black congressman and the reconstruction period if all. the 13th and 14th amendments are important history so me as a young man seeking this stuff out and the african-american struggle wold. not only was i proud but i was understanding something. we were not stupid. we were profound. to read frederick douglass and the underground railroad and oh my god. i am saying something. i am an engineer. i work in the engineering department. 1962, 1963 and 1960 i started there. j. edgar hoover and ronald reagan was called -- and i resented it to this day. you don't call me hoodlum and the thud. electromagnetic field with the

gemini missile program. all three stages of the gemini program. i was raised and i was an architect at age 15 and 16. i was the one who drew the plans for my father adding rooms to people's houses in the san francisco bay area. i was no hoover. i love the high-tech work that i got interested in my civil human rights struggle. i want to hear dr. martin luther king speak and he was talking about these businesses across the country would not hire people of color. he categorized the mall and he finally got to the -- and he says we are going to boycott the spread companies. we are going to boycott kilpatrick bread company. we are going to boycott them so

consistently and so profoundly we want to make wonder bread wonder where the money went. dr. king oakland auditorium 7000 people hit the floor. i am just one young student impressed and inspired by dr. martin luther king. this was something. time to fall than they killed malcolm x etc. and blog, blahblog, blog. i have a one man -- nobody is writing when malcolm x is killed tears are running down my face. when they murdered malcolm x. i was upset even earlier than that. by nelson mandela king sent to prison in the early part of 63 for the rest of his life. i dropped my engineering job after three and half years and i went to work in the community. i created one of the first youth jobs in california.

that was the first program i helped create. and then of course i was working for the department of human resources for the city of oak in and so on. but it got to the point right to do something. i was still working with the city government. employment and decent housing and education and exportation or community. appointed all black men and women to to do not have to be drafted into the war and to fight in the war in vietnam because it was not recognized in civil human rights. this is what was going on. we chose that is the first issue out of our 10-point program that we were going to go out on. and because we heard he had rampant police brutality not only in african-american

community that what most impresses and got us to get going with that prior to that was what? a protest movement, an antiwar of protest movement. an antiwar movement that got stopped for blocks from my home in oakland california. 10,000 people in that rally and men who got up around that rally and watch the police open up with the's angels riding their motorcycles, 50 or 60 of them and in plowing into all the peaceful protesters and the police viciously beating all of these protesters. that coupled with birmingham and other civil rights. so we are going to have an organization and we are going to stand on the rights of self-defense. with we are going to patrol and observe the police as our first issue. very political in what we were talking about. they capture the imagination of the people to unify their votes

and maybe we could take over some political power seats. why were we after the political power seats? at that time the best information we had was less than 50 people of color to a elected throughout the united states of america. can you imagine? i took time to mention that and figured out. we have 50 counties in california alone. so in each one of those towns of sheriffs was elected, appointed not elected. well, whoa what's going on? imagine the towns in the cities in the city councils he could be elected to whether part-time city council, etc.. wow. i ended up estimating some 500,000 political seats we could

be elected to in the united states of america. 500,000. whoa. just 50 people of color and this was in the middle 19 60's. we were going to patrol the police to capture the imagination of the people to start organizing and that is what we were going to do. we want the city councils so we can change the racist laws in this city. so we could change the racist laws and the county seats etc.. that is very important and that is where we were at. the cop jumps up, 14 of us really trained this group. only one person can talk. our guns were loaded and some people think they were unloaded. they were voted. i would never go out in the street with an unloaded gun. more importantly we have the law books with us. we have to tape recorders and i put a tape recorder and hung it around little bobby's neck.

hung it around his neck so i punch the recorder, two buttons of the old recorder. i never forgot it. we walked up with 50 or 60 people gathered around us. you're in the nightlife areas seventh street. convenience and liquor stores and some sister was just real nice. she saws walking up in our little uniforms and berets and we all had guns. and those who had handguns carried the 10-point platform program. those who had long guns just carried the long guns. huey had a shotgun. a pump shotgun. huey has the lawbooks and of course we walked up in the cop is on the passenger side door. his arrest he is standing to the back with his hand on the back of the trunk. i just assumed this guy was

dealing with him for a ticket or something. the police had his passenger door open but he was on the passenger side talking and he does not see us walking appeared we get up to the curb and everybody lines up and stands on the curb, boom. an old man comes out, what have you gotten your hands out there? what are those, sticks? those are guns. guns, and getting out of here. no one leave, everyone stay right here. you are citizens like we are and we are here to observe these policemen have been brutalizing us. no one leaves. you have no right to observe me. california state supreme court rules says you have the right to observe a police officer. i am standing approximately 20 feet from you and we will observe you whether you like it or not. the oldest sister on the sidewalk she says go ahead on

and tell it, brother. is that downloaded? you have no rights whatsoever. stand back. you cannot remove my property without due process of the law. stand back, you cannot touch my weapon. ..

does. >> and another brother ran to the other side of the car. he said don't shoot this way, a brother. [laughter] and the cop was not afraid. he was best because he looked up and there was 14 of us. with the big afro and beret and a big 44 pistol that she had bid given and you can

see the politics there. i don't have time for that. a lot of one-dimensional thinking. that is the politics the growth of the black panther party hikes the explosion growth was dr. martin luther king, a six weeks before he

was killed abernathy called me and said i am calling you because dr. king would like to know if you be willing to participate to have a representative to pull together 100 or more organizational groups around the country, not only would we want you to help us and work with everybody, we also want to keep the committee together in dr. king wants us to work together for the first order of business to hammer out a plan for economic liberation. i said yes, as chairman we definitely will be there and do whatever he wants.

i had respect for dr. king. of they said they put him as the boot liquor i said what the hell? he said chairman i know you said you cannot put to dr. king in our newspaper and call him a bootlegger and he said chairman i said non-violence is peaceful protest. they have a constitutional right for peaceful protest. that some black, white, anybody lot resupply is there right to have that. if we have a peaceful rally we have a peaceful rally but we will defend ourselves with our lives. chairman, i made a mistake. i am just saying we will cool us to work in

coalitions with 38 organizational groups in america. black groups and racial lines 10 or 12 white organization's behalf dr. king was killed there was only 400 members on the coast but then i had 5,000 members in 49 chapters plus the ncff, 683 marks we are

talking about all these things. nixon was elected in 1968 the next week he has a meeting with j. edgar hoover by the first week hoover is a national television saying black panther is a national threat before nixon is sworn in. they are prepared to move. by january 17th well-documented and killed in this book to the murders was above and beyond the us organization called the steiner brothers there real names of their real killers are in this book. well researched and never went to jail. one of those end up in the

l.a. district office of the fbi as written in another book from another fbi agent. this is important to understand. john mitchell it u.s. attorney general is on national television by the end of this year 1969 we will be rid of the black panthers says john mitchell. always happening by the end of the year? i am in jail. they have to be charged in chicago to connecticut and if you read this book you will read and talk about things. reed finn york chapter in the counterintelligence program and fbi a lot comes from the senate

investigation against the fbi for attacking our chapters and branches. the two-story building headquarters in los angeles, california, 360 degrees, this is where we will depict that but i was in jail at this time. right on down to is a trial of myself from connecticut and how the counterintelligence program were already talking to the district office, and the fbi telling them maybe we could get a torture program going against the black panthers. one day before we speak at yale university university, george, which we now realize was the

operative for the fbi, he became a bodyguard for carmichael but he goes to new haven with a homeless guy who bathed for money or something and immediately when he gets there, i have the trial transcript at home , he ties him up in a chair and starts to beat him and orders him to boil water and he scalds the man trying to make him say he is an operative for the fbi. that is what he does. and williams tells me after it is over i never went to the black panther party i went to the apartment. i am talking to landon and i

kicked george out of the party in san francisco for beating somebody a pate and he said get rid of him i said why you let him in? still key said he wanted to keep him in the party. i said no you will befallen my directives you will follow his. yes. but you are wrong. so the next thing i know i am in oakland california then later refined out blandon told him to take a man out and taken back to wherever. with george doesn't do that. read my trial transcripts i'm probably one of the only people that have them. i am going to -- to probably answer the question but after he kills the man he

goes to six chapters of the black panther party he has all of this money indianapolis, a denver, ohio , , etc. up to chicago. every time he gets to a chapter committee leaves the next day the fbi and the police raid the chapter all six. including chicago. just trying to tell you it was a dynamic piece but with the final analysis we won the last shootout and i will tell you politically how we did it. power to the people. thank you very much. [applause] >> we will invite our panelists to come up to the stage and take a seat and as

we do that we want to encourage you to give your questions to e. elizabeth elizabeth, okay, we want to ensure that the questions are answered. i am sure he will be back. but first of all, shows some love to our authors. [applause] and as we collect the questions i will just open a dialogue with a couple of questions. my first one is you indicated you sifted through a lot of text their memoirs

written by former members and a lot of scholarly text. my first question is, how did these shape your book? >> history is always hard to right. it takes time and reflection in to find and how people lived and experience but also to put it in a broader context of the time and we have talked about with the presentation this was particularly challenging because so much had been done by the state to vilify the party and of the state but in some ways i would love to take lots of credit

but the credit is due much more broadly for a former panther and the young generation of scholars when they try to unpack the history over the last couple decades. there are dozens of memoirs but those that have the unpacked in history. but most of the treatments and the strength is they have gotten into the nitty gritty so we are fortunate to have the politics of the chicago black panther party and on the health program centered in new york. a dissertation on breakfast for children program, dozens and dozens of different pieces and powerful memoir set tell the story from a personal and individual prospective. what we try to do is not

only do our own archival research, creating two major archives but benefit and build upon the vast wealth of research that hundreds of individuals have done to make sense of a broader policy. >> we stand on the shoulders of people who have given us interviews and share their stories with us. and as was made clear, there are lots of folks out there. but we wanted to right in a simple text, a synthetic, a comprehensive story. their problem is we have to sift through a lot of that material to figure out the way in which we want to write the history that works

and what if it's because you cannot put everything data book would be four times as big but we have to pick and choose and be tried to be balanced and thorough and as clear as we could be. >> do you ever regret, i'm sorry. deal ever regret now all of your sacrifices? >> i don't regret come i'm trying to figure out. i cussed out at the trial because he violated my right to defend myself in the

courtroom while my lawyer was in the hospital i was in chicago and this man tries to do try me and he denied to me my motion for me to defend myself when i was arraigned charles was here now i'm asking you to do this. the six amendments said i had counsel of choice, my choice. so for seven makes i got into an argument with this guy for i was chained and shackled and gay and on a consistent basis the first day i was in a metal folding chair handcuffed to the sides and the legs with metal handcuffs they put tape over my mouth. i had a goatee then when they picked me up to set me down in the courtroom and a big argument happened well if he would just indicate he

will not disrupt this score anymore by shaking his head up and down this is where i was coming from. but i remembered something i had read a person pulling up their chains is acting in the manner of a free person. so that metal costs in the jury sitting there we will not have court today. send the jury out. the second day they had big mahogany wood in shares. -- chairs. they strapped my arms and my legs.

so to be beating up and shackled and the gag and every day and you are there and you know, that you might be killed. 28 of my party members died with fields and a sacrifice. agents and also police killed and murdered my black panther party members literally across this country. 1969 every chapter was attacked in one way fashion or form. john mitchell said the united states attorney general said by the end of the year we will be rid of the black panther party. i hate to that party members died and that we had to defend yourselves and 14 policemen died. we still have political

prisoners to this day who went to jail under the operation of the fbi and we still have to work to get them free. when i do my film is not just for the sake of it by doing so i can raise enough money, i need to raise a good $1 million to put them under the innocence project and based on have them going to jail to see how many political prisoners we can get out of jail. [applause] >> the next question for the authors, how much of the material from the book actually came from members of the black panther party or those that were associated with the party? >> that's a good question. we realized very heavily on

the newspaper and most of that material comes from the party members. we realized very heavily the initial question memoirs and autobiography is -- autobiography and a broad base of interviews available and that we add access to. it is hard to quantify with a numerical percentage but we wanted the voices within the booktv the voices of those engaged in a struggle so we tried to get as close as possible but

there is also a way in which another project we're interested in, thinking about writing about the history totally from the ground up and to what we're doing in this book is thinking about the party and organization and practices of their different ways. >> most of the book is based on people and events and their recollection. one thing that was a struggle is how you distinguish between the fact and conflict and story especially these are such charged politics you people have different recollections that are filtered 40 years of intervening politics. we did a lot of talking to

people but we wanted to get the politics right so almost exclusively relied on that we could document with those that were approximately and we use those conversations for what was happening but if you would get the footnotes every statement is back death with a wider engagement of available documents and we are fortunate there is a lot of evidence created by the party itself at the time of the events in question. >> this particular question

is detailed in the text but please confirm the origin of the party's name. >> rewrote the 10 point* platform but i was is in jail when i was writing these but i went back to do research the day we were given probation october october 10th was the day and to keep us from going to use jail, they would put us in jail between one and tenures but once i explained you have to understand i am just reciting a poem but those cops understand said guy said you used of seeming

wage and i said f. you and i said who are you? he was not in uniform, he did not even show me a badge and the next thing i know i am tackled by him and the uniformed cop i did not see the fight that then they said he started boxing when he was a sugar ray leonard and only weighed 150 pounds. so my bet is we on the ground by three or four under covers and finally some other black guys than some hippies' kicked them off and i came up with my knife just of little mice may we like a scout knife some industry said bobby seale pulled out a stiletto it was a scout knife.

[laughter] you know, the two and a half-inch played there is a corkscrew, a can opener. [laughter] that is what the knife was. but i pulled that out in the of the teacher came at me again and i said get off my ass. but my point* is i told the judge but he shook his head and gave us one year probation. we talk about putting together a new organization you meet me be will finish writing set template program and that is where we rode it and got down through october october 22nd and still did not have the name i left a

section not to put down the name and i received the day before some freedom organizations. it had a logo of a pouncing panther. no words just a logo. in those days any organization if i get the address seven right to them and ask them to send the information route was going on. so huey said what is the deal with the panther? i said i don't know here is an affirmation. he said the white citizens council have the rooster. i said the panther would kick the rooster's but then he left and went to the law

library yankee back two hours later. i looked up than nature of a panther if you put him in net corder he will go the other way and sooner or later. >> i said that is what we are pushed into a corner and we have to come out. he said i don't know but i have to name the idiom organization what about the black panther party? could. political party that is what we are. but i said we would take a position of self-defense. >> he said okay we should cans and i said okay i will meet you tonight to print upon thousand copies but my point* is he came down we

collated and stapled, etc.. my brother came by he was a bus driver at the time and i said what you coming down to my workplace? when you coming home? blob blob blob. so we got everything we need and we said we are a political organization may have to have a chairman. he said would about the self as a -- self-defense? so i had to flip it and i am chairman and he says no. i have the right to flip. it is not the two of us. [laughter] you automatically get a.

[laughter] you are right to. he will be the designated leader? i am the leader i am the organizer. >> we really need a leader price 81 to be the leader? you can be the designated leader but i am also a leader of the party. people shake hands. we run the organization together. right? so we have a multiple leadership framework. fine with me and he is seven years gender than me it was so is developing misshapen the back of my mind to know he was brilliant but there was certain things that he we needed to learn. so i will see to it that

huey developed a real leadership and he never had put one together that was the name of the party in the beginning. >> how is the war on drugs related to the destruction of the black panther party? >> there wasn't with my party but talk about huey the last-- are the last year , huey became head dick did do drugs and cocaine but remember that organization there was no 5,000 members yet. when i left and resigned from the black panther party there were approximately 200 people. but three weeks later half of those we're gone.

if it was 100 or 60 people left, one people standing here stand up. this is stephan edwards director of the film we are putting on graduating from ucla and also a former black panther party member and he was there but the party was over when i resigned literally. because all of the organizers huey did not do that. i did it. he was in jail with effective community organizing all across the united states of america. i was the head political education instructor and one of the primary speakers.

i believed in multiple leadership so i had central committees of each chapter in each branch. as deputy ministers and six cetera, etc.. of these of the things that had to go down and did with the expansion and growth of the black panther party. i am the one that called the retreat of each chapter and 50 percent of the membership and leadership here and this time you deal with expanding of sickle cell anemia at testing program, and the demographics of voter registration. this is the kind of stuff you cannot come to my party talking about mythical kraft i don't deal with that. in my organization quantitative increase remember i am a mathematical person.

that is where i come from. i understood the mathematics in to teach black panther party members to do so even i could make him understand the application of quantitative increase and decrease. >> we cannot get to all of the questions put the good news is i read the majority of them and the majority of the questions are answered in the book. therefore i don't feel bad we have not -- not gone to all of them because the book is so full with the questions you have those. but the last question gets at many questions presented presented, could you speak about the legacy of the party? >> the legacy of the black panther party is manifested

in the grass roots community organizing. that is our true legacy and the foundation where we come from. organizing from the grass roots up where we come from. power to all the people that is our slogan. the coalition politics was over surveyed organizational groups throughout the united states of america including dr. martin luther king and we work with them movie stars and people like sammy davis, jr. and people don't know carroll o'connor "all in the family" they donated lots of money to us.

these are important things to understand. austin davis and his wife were very close to us. even richard pryor, people came over, and these are people who understood our programs and everything we put together understand that in part program is one thing but the ball an organizing klan chapters amp branches the black panther party members came up with numerous programs the one primary group came up with the free avalanche program got the donations for the african-american community plus the other programs they put together so now known as

georgia state university but more importantly she created the free pharmacy program. there are 22 different programs the cooperative housing program never got beyond architectural design. but we have legal aid service, huey can i put that program all he was in prison. i just say that we had 22 different programs so it was the key because israel programs not just political talk they were real doing real service to unite the people to get them to

understand our newspaper had over 400,000 circulation in a country which is pretty good when jet magazine was on the 800,000 at the time. i just say our legacy to meet, and the organizing, i know i a taught them a lot but it for that period, the best grass roots community organizer in the world and we defended ourselves, a 28 of us died so many wounded in the stuff of political prisoners we're trying to get out of jail. >> i think the legacy continues in several ways and to build off what

chairman bobby seale said but think of the children who went to the breakfast program on another level think of the organizers to cut their teeth like congressmen -- congresswoman barbara of the ore body rash who has become important political leaders but i want to argue that the greatest impact and legacy is not even in the direct effects to create a see change of politics globally and in the united states. let me say a couple things about that. one of the things we argue is today if you had this same level of exclusion politically and economically , if you still have no access to higher education or black studies

curriculum or completely white police and fire department is only six congressional representatives and exclusion from the political machines and still had a draft and the capacity of the government to improve on negative imposed was still have a revolutionary party like the black panther party it created the politics within that context was able to stand up to make politics as usual impossible with broad allied support that was irrepressible. so what happens was not the repression alone it wasn't working. 69 had the most repression that year but what change was the political context

changed by the early '70s there were 30 black congressmen, affirmative action programs created under nixon. he was the one who brought affirmative-action. you had access to higher education in the creation of integrated police and fire departments and changes in the democratic political machine that broaden representation and repeal of the draft and being no for so the basis of support that made it impossible to repress were eroded diana went to claim those of the only confessions the party was part of our broader challenge but we cannot understand today's a world without understanding their pride transformation of society that happened in that moment without

understanding the interco role of the black panther party. >> there is revenge black masses -- nationalism that has been advocated in some circles and frameworks there is see no phobia of white folks but it the black nationalism that i chose is a lee put in the black panther party based on unity and the community that is one level but it is a catalyst to help demonize the world that is our become from and this is what i taught it is about

human solidarity with those idiots who control and run and by the politicians and when you get down to then did the gritty with the jobs that is argued right now the right wing republics tuesday that is what this is about we have to change the dynamic. when i worked on capitol hill there were 22 black congressmen at that time and effort on capitol hill with john conyers but barbara lee worked with the black panther party and would tell you that proudly and so

leadership of the illinois state chapter is a united states congressman and they come out of our ranks in there is a lot of other people there. right now you only have 89 congressman fitter basically for aggressive voters we need 400 to get rid and curtail of the class that are scurrying over all of humanity. our objective is not some revenge we're not talking about revenge politics i want you to understand it in that context. >> on behalf of -- behalf of the african museum we think

our authors for their amazing text t. levin and we want to offer a special thank you to chairman bobby seale because of a revolutionary of leadership we can even be here today to have this conversation. they queue. [applause] spinney --. >> any book that you have "black against empire" sat joshua bloom and waldo martin have put together i have the original book the next one will say the eighth defendant after that it is this third level but the first was the story of the black panther party. i have original posters and

some memorabilia and to the dvd is public enemy i hope to produce that i am part of the production of that added is an hour-and-a-half long documentary featuring myself even the musician that wrote we are family also the musical score to coming to america and of course, gemology itself now has written a book babysit panther and he became a screenplay writer he educated himself and became head of the arts program and great beautiful talented inspiring brothers and

sisters just like yourselves who are concerned about our human existence and survival. we have memorabilia all you will be happy to autograph. thank you very much >> than things congress doesn't want you to know how it does business. powerful members of congress holds fund-raisers outside their district to increase their leverage over other members. number five, congress spends more than one headed billion

dollars every year on over 200 programs that are not authorized by law. number six, conquers routine the raids as a cult -- social security trust fund to cover shortfalls. >> if you look at the appropriation bill that has not been done because of the political dynamic, and you say we appropriate x amount of money then you look at how many programs it is over $350 billion now better funded and not authorized by the congress that shows there is the imbalance how do we appropriate funds for a program we have not said we should spend money on? with those to the power of pork or benefit what is most

important? is it important to look good in the oklahoma by the many i direct their or to think of long-term what is the health of the country long term and how to remake this decisions? and you have to work hard. >> host: members of congress frequently do not have the opportunity to read the bills they're voting on. number eight, one of the most secret and anti-democratic ways that congress spends is directing money in report language only members of the committee can go or amend and each ninth -- each year they debate the budget regis and -- resolution it has no intention of keeping and congress circumvents limits

to avoid scrutiny by its own arcane budget proceedings. >> those are true. >> host: the budget resolution may are about to begin the season. is a waste of time? >> no. right now we have three point* $6 trillion spending problem. the biggest criticism is congress is gridlock. really? how did we authorize spending three point* $6 trillion? '' we are gridlock is spending money we don't have on things that are not absolutely necessary. we are gridlocked over that to make ourselves look good to our constituents. there is no gridlock was spending your kid's future

we wouldn't spend three point* 6 trillion last year by we did a continuing resolution that passed with the democratic senate and the president signs it yet we have 1.2 trillion dollars that we don't have of which i would contend 600 billion was wasted that literally have no benefit other than those to administer or develop the program. so you could look to say every program stand up and what you see is minimal and the reason is members of congress have been done their job, they turn a blind

eye and fob criticism -- criticized when i do. , so now of that continuing resolution last year of $350 billion worth of programs were appropriated money that were never authorized by congress or the authorization has lapsed. that means authorizing committees and not working because of reauthorize it or not the one and have that committee all in one? we ignored our own rule. >> host: how much fear is there among members of congress of their constituents of criticism of not being reelected? >> it runs the gamut but may be looking at a larger perspective.

i was a businessman before i was a physician i became a position as an older individual and was known as grandpa in my class and then practiced 25 years. my goal was to be a physician. i was not at the risk of my populous other than my reputation with my patients. if you put it in context it depends said goal of your senator. if it is to fix the problem to create at least as good a future as we have had, and if that is above the personal toll to have notoriety empower imposition many will do fine see will

keep that in perspective but when you're number one goal is positioned or notoriety as if in the secondary goal is to secure the future value value your position on certain policy changes. that is not impure or terrible it is just human nature. i make the point* did you ever solve the problem, if we're ever going to secure liberty or freedoms you have to stop sending career politicians here. >> host: did you get any hostile reaction? >> i did with breach of trust i don't think many

colleagues have read my book the debt bomb but i am talking to you and i and make those speeches with my own caucus on the floor. i am o k2 take the consternation of my colleagues and i think we are in trouble but we are. we are bankrupt there is a great article if you take generally accepted accounting principles that c-span has to operate under most county governments, we have $88 trillion we have to pay for we have no idea where we would get the money over 75 years. that is one point* trillion more bills coming due than over 75 years. of feuding growth of the economy at all widely put

ourselves in that position? so now the federal reserve has increased the balance sheet $2 trillion of funny money and ultimately the pain will fall on the middle-class and the pork and will defeat what both parties say they want and yet we don't have the courage today to make the tough choices even if it means we lose our seek to secure the of future for the country. we put ourselves first instead of the country first. is not hard. any american in psittacine go read back in black there is common-sense ways to save many. just this last week the

airforce announced in the federal government we will spend $64 billion on a mighty projects -- on its projects the gao says half of that will we wasted it will never be completed or to what it is those to do we had a program as they do shed cancellous. two years ago we said it will never work. here is out inefficient government is it finally canceled it is spent another $100,000,000.1 then they pay a settlement fee to cancel but two things did not have been the person that was responsible did not get fired and not held accountable and the company that did not provide the service did not get sued to

get the money back. nobody runs their household that way most state governments don't operate that way but we are incompetent when it comes to spending taxpayer money supply would be ways that many of and 80 programs that don't work? that is 60% of what they want to take out of the pentagon. why would we do that? where is the leadership to save the will get this stopped? we will have a special subcommittee with oversight and look at the bad actors to demand those to make those decisions are fired and the others pay back. none of that happens. you can defraud the federal government not perform and do it with impunity because members of congress are not

willing or inexperienced to know that you should hold people accountable for what they say they will do whether federal employee employee, procurement employee with a company that is providing that is just an example of this week. >> host: will mature business before medical school? >> of machinery business for farm products started by my father i was plastic lens lens, class whence and interocular lenses as a division of that i did that in southern virginia. i've lived appear 10 years 69 through 2,008. >> host: does it still exist? >> it was sold and parts of it has been sold but portions exist.